"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear."
You are right. I did miss that one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! However, I do cover this basic concept in Lesson 2, just with different verses. All of these verses point to the seriousness that God puts on children being obedient to their parents.
One more thought on this. Since this is a lesson about commands to parents, let's think about this from the parent perspective. It doesn't seem like this is an action a parent would take for a toddler throwing a tantrum. This situation appears to be an older child (perhaps an adolescent or adult, given the drunkard comment) who has a consistent habit of disobedience and rebellion. Any attempts at correction or discipline seem to go unheeded. This doesn't seem to be a choice the parents would take lightly or on a whim. This is a last resort.
So you believe there are instances where taking someone and stoning him to death is justified? See, I believe that there is NO instance where stoning someone to death is OK. It’s cruel and barbaric. This is one of the reasons I left the church years ago. Watching Christians twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify inhuman behavior just because it’s in the Bible.
I believe there is a difference between the law from the Old Testament (old covenant), which is what this verse in Deuteronomy covers, and the grace in the New Testament (new covenant). I believe that before the time of Jesus, the Jewish people who were under the law set forth in books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy did follow these laws. They were given by a holy God who cannot tolerate sin, whose penalty for sin and disobedience was (and still is) death and eternal removal from his presence. Do I understand these laws? No. Do I think they are at times cruel? Yes. But that was also a different culture and a different way of interacting with God than we have now.
Now, we are under the new covenant of grace established by Jesus through his death on the cross. That death was also cruel, and God (in the form of Jesus) took that punishment upon himself even though he was completely obedient in every way. That death allows us to live under grace, not under the harsh punishment of the law. Even Jesus himself, in an instance where the old law would have chosen stoning as a punishment, gave grace and forgiveness (to the adulterous woman, see John 8:1-11).
So, if you are asking whether I believe the actions described in this law would be a correct action today, I would say a resounding NO. The new covenant teaches us not to judge, not to condemn, but we are responsible for raising our kids to know Christ in the best way we can. We are also supposed to provide accountability to Christians who should be obeying God but are going astray in some way. The Bible talks clearly about rebuking those who are straying from their faith, and then forgiving them if they repent (see Luke 17:3-4). It also gives a clear instruction for how to handle this continued rebellion within the church in Matthew 18:15-17. First, go to that person alone, then with 2-3 witnesses, then in front of the church. For each step, if they repent, forgive and move on. If they don't repent, escalate to the next step. The final action is then removing them from the local church body. It is definitely NOT stoning them to death.
Even though this context is the church, it can be applied to parents and children as well. Try to address it within the home, then maybe pull in a counselor or pastor, then maybe a larger group of peers and others who might be able to connect with them. If none of those work, maybe the answer is kicking them out of the home (assuming they are old enough to be on their own). Sometimes tough love is the right answer. But abuse never is, now that we are under the new covenant.
You missed Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear."
You are right. I did miss that one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! However, I do cover this basic concept in Lesson 2, just with different verses. All of these verses point to the seriousness that God puts on children being obedient to their parents.
One more thought on this. Since this is a lesson about commands to parents, let's think about this from the parent perspective. It doesn't seem like this is an action a parent would take for a toddler throwing a tantrum. This situation appears to be an older child (perhaps an adolescent or adult, given the drunkard comment) who has a consistent habit of disobedience and rebellion. Any attempts at correction or discipline seem to go unheeded. This doesn't seem to be a choice the parents would take lightly or on a whim. This is a last resort.
So you believe there are instances where taking someone and stoning him to death is justified? See, I believe that there is NO instance where stoning someone to death is OK. It’s cruel and barbaric. This is one of the reasons I left the church years ago. Watching Christians twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify inhuman behavior just because it’s in the Bible.
I believe there is a difference between the law from the Old Testament (old covenant), which is what this verse in Deuteronomy covers, and the grace in the New Testament (new covenant). I believe that before the time of Jesus, the Jewish people who were under the law set forth in books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy did follow these laws. They were given by a holy God who cannot tolerate sin, whose penalty for sin and disobedience was (and still is) death and eternal removal from his presence. Do I understand these laws? No. Do I think they are at times cruel? Yes. But that was also a different culture and a different way of interacting with God than we have now.
Now, we are under the new covenant of grace established by Jesus through his death on the cross. That death was also cruel, and God (in the form of Jesus) took that punishment upon himself even though he was completely obedient in every way. That death allows us to live under grace, not under the harsh punishment of the law. Even Jesus himself, in an instance where the old law would have chosen stoning as a punishment, gave grace and forgiveness (to the adulterous woman, see John 8:1-11).
So, if you are asking whether I believe the actions described in this law would be a correct action today, I would say a resounding NO. The new covenant teaches us not to judge, not to condemn, but we are responsible for raising our kids to know Christ in the best way we can. We are also supposed to provide accountability to Christians who should be obeying God but are going astray in some way. The Bible talks clearly about rebuking those who are straying from their faith, and then forgiving them if they repent (see Luke 17:3-4). It also gives a clear instruction for how to handle this continued rebellion within the church in Matthew 18:15-17. First, go to that person alone, then with 2-3 witnesses, then in front of the church. For each step, if they repent, forgive and move on. If they don't repent, escalate to the next step. The final action is then removing them from the local church body. It is definitely NOT stoning them to death.
Even though this context is the church, it can be applied to parents and children as well. Try to address it within the home, then maybe pull in a counselor or pastor, then maybe a larger group of peers and others who might be able to connect with them. If none of those work, maybe the answer is kicking them out of the home (assuming they are old enough to be on their own). Sometimes tough love is the right answer. But abuse never is, now that we are under the new covenant.